tv The Dylan Ratigan Show MSNBC June 2, 2011 4:00pm-5:00pm EDT
overshadowed the gop's leading contender for the white house in 2012, is in fact about public profile and money. now, only time will tell if i'm right. but the opportunity to express such a view is what makes america such a great place to live and to work. thanks very much for watching. dylan ratigan picks things up from here. dylan, what is on for this afternoon pz we will start right off the gate martin with the war on the war on drugs. former president of colombia and former special operations military official talking not only about how drug usage has exploded over the past ten years. we've spent nearly a trillion dollars fighting in and only to watch co-wayne for instance go up by nearly 30%. there's got to be a better way. and the show starts right now.
our big story today, losing the war. i'm not talking about iraq or afghanistan. good afternoon. i'm dylan ratigan. we are talking about the decade-old war on drugs. a new report saying the global drug war is failing. how do they measure it? by drug consumption. worldwide marijuana consumption up 8%. cocaine usage, up 27%. openates consumption up more than a third. over the past decade, during the same period, the war on drugs cost upwards of $1 trillion. now, an international panel made of former heads of state as well as u.n. and nato leaders is calling on the obama white house to shift its drug policy away from criminalizing drug use and focus on the public health issue of increased drug consumption.
their proposal, ease the crack down on nonviolent drug users, regulate the legal sale of marijuana and address the public health. that would drastically cut america's prison over population. we incarcerate 3 1/2 times any develop nation. 60% of our offenders are in fact nonviolent. and do that end, we are also in a war that killed just 40,000 -- not just, killed 40,000 people. just south of the border in mexico. not to mention, that a strategy like this, in addition to reducing the murder rate, reducing the incarceration rate, increasing the drug usage would defund the drug cartels themselves. meanwhile our president, and a drug czar, not giving it much as a second glance. insisting that making drugs
legally available or any thinking on the increased consumption of marijuana, cocaine or openates in the face of a trillion dollar spent, why would you need to reconsider that? joining us in the conversation, former president of colombia, a member of the global commission on drug policy, calling for this war to be declared, on the war on drugs, and lieutenant colonel anthony shaver who encountered drug ops during the drug wars in 1990s. he is now a senior fellow at center for advanced studies. mr. president, give me a sense of how on earth it is you can spend a trillion dollars fighting a problem only to see the problem that you're fighting get bigger. >> yes, i think prohibitionism. it is a wrong policy. prohibitionism means not only fighting drug cartels. but putting them in jail. the people that belong to them but also putting in jail
consumers. we think that is not a right policy to put if place. i think this country is suspended to say, it is spending $40 billion a year. most of the money, almost 90% of the money is going to the police, going to the system, going to the prisons. and then we are spending -- this country is not spending enough in prevention, treatment and education. >> so in brief, what would your alternative be? >> well, one of the problems is here people say that -- that a wrong approach. for many years, most european countries have started to deal with this problem in a different way. not putting people in jail. giving them access to health system. trying to get people out of the criminals. and they have been quite
successful. >> by what measure? >> very significantly. mostly is portugal. it is a very good significance. the use of the drugs, particularly marijuana, has come down. >> decrease? >> decrease, yes. decrease in consumption. less violence. very success. and it is not true that because drugs are available that people will get mad using them. it is not true. at least in europe, that has not happened. you cannot say that you cannot change a policy because you have a fear. that is what they are saying here. >> they are afraid and they don't act. >> it is not based on evidence. it is based on fear. >> tony, we all know making decisions based on fear in general tends to be disastrous for nations or individuals. the data is pretty stark. we are a trillion dollars up. marijuana consumption is higher. cocaine is significantly higher.
opiate consumption is higher. we have a budget crisis. california spends more on prisons than they do on education. i don't want to get into too long of a question on you here, but can you give me any insight as to where y it is we can't see a more rational debate on the subject where people that talk about legallization aren't seen as drug advocates, they are seen as people who are against massive spending on something that doesn't work. >> this may surprise you, i'm of a mind we should probably legalize marijuana and tax the heck out of it. california is going in that direction already. some of the programs we are talking about, regarding the eradication process, have been within the scope of their objectives very successful. during the 90s, i worked on something called the linear linkage aappropriate, where we were looking at trying to dismantle cartels.
colombia has actually benefitted greatly from this effort. the economy in colombia now is roaring. it is one of the fastest growing economies in latin-america today. dylan, the thing we can't forget and i'm all for the public policies the president is putting forward here. you have to attack the consumption, if you have demand, people will produce something. with that said, things like the fark, the terrorism in colombia benefitted. the hezbollah las been working with the farng to trade guns for drugs. we cannot neglect the war. i think we should look at the war on drugs like anything else. there are things we can probably do morening nomically. more effectively. and one of our senior fellows working this at the policy level, talks about the fact that, and you and i both agree on afghanistan, i don't think we are going the right direction. we have been able to reduce the
production of poppy fields by 45% over the last five years. but there is still a market. >> is there a way to thread the needle and attack the suppliers but we want to help the consumers? >> yes. yes. i fully agree colombia las been successful. colombia has been able to check on security. that has to be done in mexico and central america. . it has been very useful for colombia. but the flow of drugs through colombia is the same. so you can check on security. you can look at the airport. colombia spends on security the same as u.s., a percentage of gdp. the same. and i think the war -- i mean, to fight drug cartels is something you keep to do. in mexico and colombia, but that doesn't mean you have to take to
jail, consumers. that is the part of the wrong policy. because that part you are spending a lot of resources. in something that is not useful, to take a young guy to jail for spend $450,000, just to make that guy not a better citizen, but a worse citizen. someone that will probably never better life. probably he was able to have a good job. probably. so it is much better to have a health system deal with that. >> instead of spending a bunch of money to make sicker, less viable, less able to contribute citizens. i want to give both of you a chance to listen to professor michelle alexander who has a book out now that jim talks a lot about this, takes a listen to her comments in a pod cast earlier this week. >> much of the violence going on in mexico and in the united states associated with the drug trade of marijuana, that would
end if marijuana was legalized. you know, people think of drugs as causing violence. but in fact it is drug prohibition that causes violence just as the enormous amount of mob and dang-related activity surrounding alcohol prohibition evaporated when alcohol was made legal. >> tony, is this as simple as the politics? the politicians don't want to appear to be endorsing drugs. they would much rather allow drug usage to explode higher, not treat the consumption problem but appear to to be a badass because they spend a lot of money on it? >> that is lunacy when you think about it. the bottom line is follow the money. just like al capone and pro digs. today in the 21st century, terrorism gra graph dates to this sort of thing. it is a money-making proposition for them. this is why you are seeing in
mex coat huge battles spilling over into our borders. we have to look realistically that the market for this is huge. that's why you have these illegal narko terrorism organizations working as hard as they do to produce and move the product in the united states. i do agree, we need to look at how you stop that. you stop that by reducing demand. i think in many ways the realistic approach is looking at how do we reduce demand. legallization is part of that. >> i fully agree with what he says. i think that the real solution to the problem is reduction of consumption in the u.s. but there is an additional thing. you have to look for wayes it reduce the size of the business. that's what europeans have done. if you take people out of the criminal -- the criminal black market, the business will come down. that is something the u.s. has to try. i mean, having so many people in jail, being so dangerous,
increasing price of drugs in cities doesn't help to have a less -- in a smaller market. it doesn't help. so you need to reduce the amount and reduce the size of the black market of this black market. >> thank you so much for paying us a visit today. compliment you on your efforts to bring this message into this country. i think it is desperately needed. fomer president of colombia. tony, it is always a pleasure to see you. coming up in this hour on a thursday afternoon. who said manufacturing was a dying industry? we will take you inside idea factories producing the creativity and innovation america so desperately needs for its future success. also ahead, a conversation with secrets to success. guess what, it is not necessarily hard work. plus, some of you might not find this surprising.
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james we call him, jimmy williams. we begin with the budget debate. today james, the democrats meeting with the president. are we getting anywhere with anything or are we just being subjected to more campaign ad preproduction? >> well, you know, i have seen that great bumper sticker when you are going on you the interstate on the way it vacation. and it says, hurry up and look busy, jesus is coming. that's what this is. we for all intents and purposes, we are running around looking busy. as it should. when you are under pressure, you tend to make your bet deals. i don't know about you or our co-panelists but i wrote my papers at the last minute. >> the only thing i would say is that at the end of the day, the challenge here for the democrats on this negotiation is to not
give up their power. because at this point, medicare, being on the table, americans agree with democrats. so in terms of a negotiating position, they are in a good spot. in terms of republicans they are not in a good spot. >> oh, i don't quite see it that way. we have two months until the countdown clock starts. the republicanes have been very disciplined about calling for democrats to have a plan, which they don't right now. so i don't know how long the democrats are going to be able to go without producing some form of a plan. >> but susan, the democrats plan is called medicare. the president put some ideas in his last budget that the republicans opposed. and by the way, the republicans are essentially negotiating and holding hostage our credit and all that with something that americans don't even agree with. people don't want what they are trying to press for. >> but everyone knows they need to to see some real reform.
if democrats don't offer up something, it will be an awful long time. we don't have a week or ten days. >> i agree with susan to wrap it up. we know it is symptomatic of larger problems. i would like to see mickey mouse come up with a plan at this point, honestly. call yourself whatever you want. let's talk about what we have avoided talking about at this point. i call it weinorgate. let's look at anthony weinor's conversation. >> my system was hacked. pictures can be manipulated. pictures can be dropped in and inserted. >> you will not flat out deny that photograph is not you. >> here is what i will say. we are trying to figure out exactly what happened here. almost of a 11 hours of answering questions that anyone wanted to put today, i have to
get back it work and do the job i'm paid to do. >> now, there are so many ways one could go with this. >> i think my favorite was luke trying so hard it to look so hard while asking. >> he was channelling his nbc news, "60 minutes", i got you in the corner, is this or is this not yours. karen, how could the answer be, "could be"? come on. >> okay, wait a second. wait a second. let's go there for two seconds. >> this part of your body could be -- >> for two seconds, i will indulge you on this one, dylan. >> okay. >> there is a scenario you guys, let me get through it, there wr there is a picture. someone hacks and gets a picture
and makes changes. what if he says it is absolutely me and absolutely is not me and we find out, it absolutely might be. we could jump on him for that. >> he should have kept his mouth shut until he was ready to answer the question. >> it was a stupid, dumb hack or whatever, and has handled it pretty poorly i'll admit. if he would just shut up for now. . >> what is true and false. >> absolutely. you don't do a second round of interviews unless you can absolutely answer every single question to exhaustion. >> jimmy,et me be very clear with you. as a political consultant, if i was a politician, and we're going over a list of questions that i might be asked, if someone was to ask me, dylan, is that yours? is not the answer always no? >> my only advice, and this is the only time i will ever say
that about this subject matter, less is more. is. >> but don't you guys think that in all seriousness, we are all fascinated by this -- >> i'm not. >> karen, this is -- >> wait, it is fun to have fun at anthony's expense, but i don't think america really cares about this. >> this is a classic burns for sure which is why we only give it 60 more seconds. however, we are going to give it 60 more seconds while rome is burning. i suspect it will still be on fire of a our 60 seconds are up, susan. but you have to ask yourself, what the heck is anthony thinking. don't you go with full denial and forget about it aller full acknowledgement and deal with it. as opposed to, could be. >> he can't help himself. he has had this relationship with the press for a long time pip i think maybe he pushed himself one over the line here
and thought he could get away with something. i mean, there's a part of him that does love the attention, which is kind of sick in itself. >> listen, go ahead, last word, karen. >> what is the over/under on how much longer we will hear various versions of weiner is in a pickle. >> i will give you the over on 10 days and under on 20. i would say your mark set 10 to 20 days. >> anthony's wiener is not lowering the price of gas. this is not relevant to what we should be talking about. >> well what is relevant is jobs in america. >> yes. >> we will take a momentary break and bring in a guest to exactly that fact. he is a specialist today. we will take to you places where the new american economy may be taking shape. can we do more of what is already working, in places like
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>> from my first day in office, my number one job will be to see that america once again is number one in job creation. >> that mitt romney officially throwing his hat into the 2012 race today. his overarching theme, jobs. somebody's got to do it. we of course talk an abundance on this show about the failure of our politicians to deal with the unemployment crisis and the eco systems andern viernments that create jobs and solve problems under the process. in pact fact, there are parts of this country where that problem solving leads to job creation and investment that washington refuses to engage in. our specialist is william holstein. he has pro filed a number of
cities and countries than building eco systems andern viernments that solve america's problems and create jobs in the process. their stories are contained in his new book "the next american economy, the blueprint for a real economy" it is a pleasure to have you here. >> thank you. >> the key is the environment. >> we know that ideas come out of universities and research institutes. so those ideas to be in an eco system where the entrepreneurs can find venture capital, angel capital, where they can get mentoring, have incubators or other kinds of helping devices, so we can analyze the eco systems we see in san diego or austin or pittsburgh or orlando, florida even. see how they are working and what the gaps are and how they can be improved. >> susan? >> hi, william. the federal government, when they read one of the stories in
your books, they say, let's reproduce it and do it everywhere. they spend a lot of money and it and it is not very successful. what can states or municipalities do? what can they do instead of having the federal government create them and be rather unsuccessful. >> there are clear limits what what the federal government can do. they can't pick a technology, wave a magic wand and say this will happen and we in washington decree it will happen. washington spends $150 billion aier on research. it could better coordinate that. it can target that so maybe 10% goes to commerciallization of technology instead of science. what nasa does with its r & d is huge. the federal government has huge tools to spur innovation. to spur the commerciallization of those ideas. they can't mandate that it happen from washington alone. they have to work with coalitions at the state and
regional level, which is exactly what happens at san diego, cleveland, pittsburgh. they have coalitions of people dedicated across political lines, by the way, to try to create eco systems where ideas happen. where exports are put in place so medium sized companies can figure out how to go into international markets. there are people working with the federal government in the background as a supporter of the r ann d. as a supporter of export instra truck tour. there are answers, dylan, to the big questions we are asking. >> jimmy? >> william, one of the things when you hear, and we go out and have conversation with real americans instead of the beltway, we don't make anything in this country any more wp we don't make anything. i'll give you an example, there is school in charleston, south
carolina. four year liberal arts. this school does one thing. trains master craftsman and craftswomen in plastering, iron work, stone work. you think, who who does that? there is a fur year liberal arts school dedicated solely to that. we aren't creating american jobs and american products. what is your solution? i know you are talking about tech and the universities and this sort of thing. what about real american products where it says on the tag, made in america? >> we make so many industrial products we sell all over the world. we make the irrigation kmimt, airplanes, caterpillars. >> americans don't agree with that. >> caterpillars are more in china than america. >> for anyone to say americans don't make anything, i challenge you to go to pittsburgh or cleveland, any place outside the beltway.
take a look. americans are making a lost things. >> i challenge you to go into wal-mart and look on the racks. >> wal-mart is buying more goods from china than the entire nation of britain buys every year. it is true that consumer goods, ipods, handheld devices, those are made in china and asia. there are broad sectors of our economy based on manufacturing. certainly we are involved in all sorts of biotech manufacturing. all sorts of advanced technology and in pittsburgh and cleveland. electronics that roll up and bend. americans are making things. it is not like we have been blown out of the whole manufacturing sector. >> karen, go ahead. >> thanks. william, one of the things we have talked about on this show is how do we ensure we have the people in the pipeline who will be those inventors who will then work in the communities, in these clab rat ifs you are talking about. i'm wondering if in any of the
examples you talk about in your book, how are they working at the university level or high school level to help make sure we are filling that sort of human pipeline and making sure we have the talent we need to be able to you know, invent the things that are going to help our economy? >> there is a huge amount of talent in the idea factories, and in university of texas, university of central florida. talent comes from all over the world. that's not the issue. the issue is how do we get the ideas out of factories, out of the universities. that is where the system is not functioning as well as it should. our ideas create industry in malaysia, south korea and taiwan. there is a break down in the commercialization. and there is another question we should ask, which is one once we create an industry like in san diego and you need advanced cryomata sifts, there are millions of people unemployed
and you take the people out of retail, can they become a biomatasist? not a chance. >> i think karen's point is the concern that pipeline is inadequate because of the dysfunction in the american educational system. >> the community colleges are what i wrote about b in the book. they are taking lead in retaining. people in 40's an 50s who are misplaced, it talks about the for private schools are not effective into getting people employed in skills, real jobs. so community colleges, i wrote about a community college in cleveland, there are 1200 all together, they are in the lead in doing this. in retraining, retooling our work force. it is an urgent priority. >> it is a pleasure to make the acquaintant and a pleasure to know you are doing what you are doing. and drawing attention to something that myself and the panel cares something very much
about. congratulations to you. congratulations on the book. thanks to karen, susan and jimmy, as we like to call them. we will see them on tuesday of next week. thanks you guys. up next, bad news for all of the men out there. this has nothing to do with twitter. it turns out, men were never really charge in any way shape or form in the scientific proof of that very statement revealed after this. yyou know there are s
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>> now we turn to the nfl where owners are citing rising costs due to shiny new stadiums are trying to take a larger chunk of revenue from the players'payroll. >> a court hearing could bring clarity. the ruling will force everyone back it work or uphold the lockout leaving players out of options and paychecks. this is not the first time we have been promised a court ruling that could be the tipping point. until anything actually happens, nfl fans will be left in the dark searching for signs of hope. the owners with shiny new tax funded stadiums, the cost they want to transfer to the players apparently. the latest shenanigan, a meeting between the commissioner, owners
and players association. so secret that owners didn't know it happened. i want to get the latest on all this craziest. david and a sports analyst and andy brandt, pleasure to see you both. dave, does anybody have any leverage? >> that a good question. you ask each side and each side says they have the leverage. the players association says they feel they can keep winning this court. owners feel they can lock the doors and shut everything down. but the biggest problem is an absence of trust. if i do nothing else on this segment, dylan, i have to read this quote from troy palomalou. he says the fact it people are fighting against big business. the big business argument is i've got the money and power therefore i can tell you what to do. that's life everywhere. i think this is a time when football players are standing up and saying no, no, no, the
people have the power. that's hardly a statement that says they are about to sing kumbaya. >> and it resonates true in so many places, whether the banking system, healthcare system, health insurance companies, energy debate. i don't know whether they can capture that sort of messaging, andy. do you think the players can tap into the national frustration at the hands of sort of greedy bastards all over the place here? >> i hear from so many fans, tweets, e-mails, and dylan i don't think the public has a lot of sympathy for either side. it is changing with whatever recent comment is in the news. or whatever players says he was having fun in the lockout and i'm not sweating it. you see different feelings about the two sides. the problem is you focus on the $9 billion and not having a lot of ability to split it up.
i think both sides are trying to search for the hearts and minds of fans. at the end much day, it is nasty, boring, not interesting. but it is a prs says. i think we are getting through the process. i'm here in st. louis and tomorrow we have the big hearing on courtroom football. they may tilt the leverage one way or the other. i think the big thing to note is after this hearing tomorrow, there are no more mashers on the calendar. that could direct a losing side towards real purposeful negotiations to get something done this summer. >> do you agree with that dave? >> i think andy is> on a couple of points. you get the sentive it is billion airs versus millionaires. what you have troy palomalou trying to do is to reframe the debate and say, no it is not millionaires versus billion airs, it is some of the richest people in the united states, against a playing life of 3 1/2 years that will statistically
die 20 years before the typical american male so people should give us a break. we're not the ones who tore up the collective bargaining agreement. we are trying to keep our piece of the pie. i don't know how effective that message will be given everything else happening in the country right now and people want their entertainment. people want a sense of escapism. the thought of not having football this fall, it is interesting if you see mayors get in on this too. you are talking about persistent unemployment and the jobs around football stadiums are not high end jobs. they are low pay, jobs with no benefits. but they are jobs. and the unemployment will be mammoth this fall. >> i think both sides, if you pen pin them in a corner in a
dark road, they will say, we will have football. each side is using courts to gain leverage and negotiations. we have had meetings the last few days. we have baby steps, imminent nowhere near an agreement. but to me, not having football go in september would be a surprise. i think it is a surprise this off season. owners had a chance. they said, we will change the system. we have no more public a appetite towards financing stadiums. the 50/50 split players have is not working for the long-term, even if it is working now. player pay is outpacing revenues. whether we believe it or not, they had a clans to do it and they did it and the players the fight back the best they can. at the end of the day, time will dictate that we will have a season. in my opinion we will have an agreement towards the start of the season. >> do you agree dave. >> i hope andy is right. i would like it see football this fall.
but i know unless owners open the books and say this is how we need to prove to you that we are actually not financially viable for the long-term, it is going to be a very tough sale to get an agreement for the simple reason that trust isn't there. people should read this interview drew brees just gave with sports illustrated where he said we don't trust owners because they lie to us. then he just reeled off five lies right there. when have you someone like drew brees saying that, it is a tough environment to see a deal getting done in time. >> a sign of the times at least. andy, i'm sorry, i'm out of time. andy brand, espn sports analyst, you can follow him on stwiter. dave zyron, you can follow him on twitter at edge of sports. it fits directly as you guys know, inside the base narrative of why we do this show, which is the need for transparency when
you are asking people to solve problems with vast majority keeping secrets. it is nuts. hall, chris matthews, a big day for the gop. first, the life lesson we can all learn from our favorite superhero. our guests of a the break. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] thanks to advanced natural gas turbine technology from ge, the power that will help make our nation more energy independent is right here in america. [ crickets chirping ] ♪ [ cheers and applause ] advanced gas turbine technology from ge. ♪
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1950s. for as long as we can all remember, superman, and for that matter with a whole host of super heroes helped americans dive into the fantasy universe. ultimate power. ultimate dignity. ultimate integrity. of a all, it is fun to pretend we too could jump from building to building, make the right decision in any situation. fly through the sky or drive for that matter, at the speed of light under a batmobile. but super heroes were around long before they were comic books. and depoc and his son goth em dove into history. their new book, seven spiritual laws of superheroes. it is a pleasure to have you back and meet you. tell us a little bit about this book. >> the book was born organically. he had a book many years ago called the seven spiritual laws of success. one of the most successful.
i've been in the comic book but the last few years, this is a sin they sees of these two. from buddha to batman. from jesus to ironman. you know, what are the qualities in all of these superheroes throughout time and mythologies that most importantly we can return ourselves. >> what is the answer? >> he grew up in boston. he was not doing well in school in mathematics. and my wife was really worried because he would read comic books all the time. i said don't worry, one day he will own a comic book company and he will hire a mathematician. he ended up making a comic book with richard branson. now he has his own comics. taking these essential qualities that human beings aspire to. since memorial, we call them plutonic qualities.
truth, goodness, harmony, inside inspiration, creativity, love and compassion, things that we all aspire to. but these mythical beings have represented them throughout the ages. the uniforms have changed. so you know, instead of a robe, you have batman, but it is the same story. >> your point and i presume the point of the book is that, this can be done. human beings who are not superman, who are not buddha, who are not that icon, can do more than aspire to this. >> right. because you have that potential within you and these mythical beings, whether agent mythical beings or today's new mythical beings, even luke skywalker and princess leah, these are our collective consciousness, are yearning, longing for the greater good.
>> can i learn how to be more like one of these people by reading this book? >> yeah. you don't have to dawn capes and tights. >> i don't mind. i've done it before. that's okay. >> that's a different show. >> yeah. there are absolutely qualities of things like, love and compassion. balance in your own life. transformation. how you can, you know, come from -- super heroes often come from great tragedy situations of despair but they transform that into fearlessness. so there are a lot of things we can look at superheroes. look at their stories, origin stories and nurture in ourselves. >> the real barrier it seems for most people, in resolution, let alone reaching aspiration, is dealing with their own fear. >> yeah and dylan, it all goes back it childhood. when i was growing up. when i was a child, my mother would tell me stories of meth cal beings and said one day you
will be like that. we change the uniform, he was reading batman and superman. i said you can have these qualities within you. the moment we give ourselves labels, a child is born pure potential, infinite possibilities. we tell them what is possible, what is not possible. in the first three years, children absorb that. and it is like in their unconscious mind. and all of the limitations human beings have go back to that time through neurons. it is never too late to change that. >> i guess that's the question, when people feel they are so entrenched in a cultural fear, nationally and globally, fear of losing my job, i don't want to lose this, what if that happens, what if this happens, what is producing this fear -- >> in the book we go through
exercises. we take the superheroes of modern times. >> i was going to mention, like you have fear, yes. green lantern, a big movie coming out this summer, he is the man with no fear. iron fists. batman. daredevil. x-men. but it is basically how you take that fear. how do you take that tragedy and transform it into something that is powerful. something that you know, batman is the great example as he takes all of the tragic circumstances and transforms it into a hero who actually doesn't really have any super powers. it is his confidence. >> he transforms his fears into that. there is a collective shadow out there. you've been reading the news. mr. wiener couldn't deal with his shadow. >> the seven spiritual laws of superheroes. >> well ba